1. As the book opens, Dan is isolated; his wife is the only person with whom he discusses his difficulties. As a pastor he does not feel safe in having such dialogues with other people and as a result, he seems to fight loneliness and anger. Would you agree that pastors are not, to quote Neo, "regular people"? Does this tension contribute to the difficulty Dan has with self-disclosure? What risks are involved when a person cannot be honest?
2. How does Neo's invitation to friendship change the nature of his conversation with Dan? What kinds of "rules" do you see taking shape in the back-and-forth of their dialogue?
3. Neo's position on evolution and creation brings him flack from all sides. Do you believe it is possible for a person to hold these beliefs and still be considered a Christian? What other issues have become litmus tests or dividing lines for Christians?
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Ha! I get to be first! (Except I'll take too long writing and someone will slip in ahead of me -- oh, well).
ReplyDelete1. Would I agree pastors are not "regular people"? We have three pastors at our Lutheran church, and I know that all three are regular people with regular lives, but I have to say, they vary significantly in their success in making their pastoral roles seem to jive with their "real person" roles. One of them seems completely sincere, both in his beliefs in the Lord and in his relationships with people. At the other extreme, another pastor is almost theatrical in his approach to the church and his parishoners in the context of the church -- at church he seems like the perfect reserved, dignified pastor -- but in odd moments I have heard him lose his temper or express an opinion which made him sound judgmental; the discrepency is jarring, and undercuts the comforting image he tries to convey to the church. Still, he definitely preaches a more memorable sermon than the first.
I think I could definitely see where trying to maintain the image of the perfect pastor would be wearing on Dan. People don't like to think that their pastors are ever angry, confused, stressed, out of control, or wrong. But if you can't be honest with people, then sooner or later you either reveal your true nature (which undercuts your position, since people don't think you are honest) or you crack, as it seems Dan did.
Our "theatrical" pastor may tell a better sermon, but, on the flip side, the "real" pastor is far more approachable. If I had a problem, I'd definitely feel better talking to him about it. Even in Sunday School, one feels comfortable voicing their own opinion even if it differs with his. And, in many ways, I find talking to a regular pastor -- with all his flaws and warts -- more valuable in the long run, because I can see where he is just a regular guy, yet can still have faith in spite of that.
3. Is it possible to share Neo's beliefs about evolution and creation and still be a Christian? Sure. After all, the Bible was written by (human) men. I think it is possible to believe that God created the world through evolution -- I still don't think we came from nothing to what we are today "by accident" -- because I think, through science, we know more today than humans knew then. They tried to describe creation in the best way they knew how, but it still was not a very sophisticated view. And maybe in a couple thousand years we will figure out that evolution wasn't the whole story, and we'll know even more (or at least the people who live here then will know more), and they'll think we are naive :).
I've heard so many litmus tests for being a "Christian," from "you have to believe the Bible verbatim" all the way to "you have to be a member of our church." I think if you believe in the teachings of Christ and the New Testament, you can call yourself a Christian. In that respect, I certainly am.
Now, if I could get past my little "faith" problem, I would be all set :).
I am John, Sandy's husband and I think that makes me a brother to the Sisters of St Flora. I am reading this book along with Sandy and I couldn't resist putting my 2 cents worth in this discussion.
ReplyDelete1. Yes most church members don't allow their pastors to be "regular people." They put them on a pedistal and are quick to critisize the slightest fault (a very common trait among Christians but certainly contrary to Christian teaching). The Lutheran Pastor that had the greatest impact on my life was only my pastor for a short three years. Everyone loved him because he showed the greatest concern for others. He treated everyone as if they were his close friend and he wanted to know everything about "you." I always thought it strange that he didn't talk much about himself. Of course this is what we are taught in Stephen Ministry, to be attentive listeners and to be non-judgmental. I always asked the pastor how he was feeling and invited him to lean on me as I knew at times he had to deal with some difficult situations. When it came to himself, he was a pollyana. He did not develope a friendship in which he would unload his burdens. It turned out that he became ill and couldn't cope with the fact that he might have to live with pain and deteriorating health. Although we will never truly know his motivation. He retired after three years as our pastor. Within 30 days of his retirement, he took his own life. Quite a shocking event for our congregation to face. "Pastors, just don't do things like that." We didn't know that he suffered from depression most of his life. He was a wonderful pastor and and brought great healing to a dysfunctional congregation. But, he was a "real person." He faced his own life crises. I have wondered many times if he would still be with us if he had a true friend with whom he could talk out his fears and frustrations as a "real person."
When I see a tradgedy like this I look for ways that God uses it to bring comfort or teach us something about life and about ourselves. I believe he used this circumstance to bring the act of suicide to our attention...to help us understand and look for signs of depression in ourselves and others...to stop someone contemplating suicide from committing the act...to learn that suicide is not the unforgivable sin...to learn that people that die in that manner are already forgiven by God's grace and will share in God's kingdom as all true believers. Thanks be to God for all pastors and church leaders who place themselves in such demanding positions as mere humans and face trials sometimes beyond the coping of a "regular person." Pastors and church leaders need our prayers as much as anyone, maybe more.
Blessings of His grace and peace,
John
2. As for creationism and evolution. Science has not disproven creationism. Scientists cannot agree on the actual events that created the universe or the earth (they do have theories but no proof). They talk about the Big Bang but can't explain that before there was anything, before time, what could have caused a chain of events that started it all. That's easy for me to reconcile. God, the mind of God, the Word of God, caused it to happen. After that it could certainly have been God's plan for things to be made as the scientists theorize. As to evolution, I support it as a scientific probability as far as how changes in a species have occured over time. Why can't this be part of God's plan. Most people don't realize that Darwin's "Survival of the Species" does not address the creation of anything, just how a species has evolved. As a Christian, it is not important to me to prove exactly how God made the earth and all the creatures on it. I am statisfied to believe God is the Creator no matter how he did it. Creationists take the Biblical story of evolution too literally. The conflict between creation and evolution is a contrived conflict and not worth the division that it has caused. I am a Christian and can accept the theory of evolution as part of God's plan.
ReplyDeleteI apoligize for my atrocious spelling and typing. I have come to rely on a spell checker and I don't think that's available for these posts. God bless you all.
John
Question #1: Mandy and John, you both hit on the situation of pastors in general with a lot of insight. But, isn't it also the state of most Christians? Most people within our congregations are putting their best foot forward when they come out on Sundays or for meetings during the week. Do you ever feel worse after having gone to church, because everyone but you seems to have it all figured out? (Hint: they don't, but they pretend really well)
ReplyDeleteI try to be as transparent as possible with the people in our congregation, but there are limitations. Do they really want to know how unholy I usually feel, how unsure of myself, how tired and burned out? Or is it part of my 'office' to bring confidence and comfort and assurance to the people regardless of how I'm feeling? John's pastor, Roger, exuded hope and calm and the love of God. He helped to bring healing to many people, but we can only guess as to the turmoil he held inside.
If we look at Dan's character, it seems pretty obvious that the answer to his prayers has come in the person of Neo. It's significant that Neo is not a member of Dan's congregation. Pastors have a hard time becoming close, confiding friends with those in the church because it's so hard to set aside the shepherd/sheep divide. (and it's probably not wise, because so much of a pastor's struggles involves congregation members) And Dan's struggles are not just with tiredness or burnout, his whole theology is being tested.
RE: John's Question #3. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteIt's probably true that people put their best foot forward at church, but, actually, I expect it extends to many aspects of our life ... work, social life ... I expect it is pretty rare that people let it all hang out, as it were. Or maybe that's just me :).
ReplyDeleteThat said, and, again, maybe it is just me, but I have a lot of suspicion toward people who act as if they have it all together (or like they know everything.) In my life, it seems that the more certain I am of something, the more likely it is that I've overlooked something, and I guess I tend to feel that people who are the "perfect" anythings are really only perfect pretenders.
Coming back to pastors, though, you commented that you wonder if your parishioners really want to know about your doubts and self-doubts. I don't think they'd mind, but there is a time and a place. If I were to go to my pastor and say, "Pastor Jones, I have a problem ..." and he were to say, "Oh, I'd love to hear it, but first let me tell you about my problem ..." that might disappoint me. But if Pastor Jones told me that on some days he had doubts, I think I'd be okay with that. Sometimes knowing someone you respect has doubts makes you feel better about having them yourself.
It's been wonderful reading all of your comments. It makes me think (a good thing!) about so much! I've been thinking a lot about pastors and the demands we make upon them. It seems to me that we want our pastor to be all things to all people and to accomplish those things very competently!! Preaching, teaching, counseling, even knowing how to do the church budget in some instances; working with youth, adults, seniors. Baptizing, marrying, dying. We want our pastor on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Where is Sabbath rest for these people? My grandfather, a Lutheran pastor, died in 1946 at the age of 62. Heart attack. Stress? Over work? Clogged arteries? And that was over 60 years ago!!! Ah, the life of a pastor.
ReplyDeleteI think creating the character of Neo does create the opportunity for Dan to talk to someone. I find it interesting that he trusted Neo so quickly. Just thinking of communities and their gossip. . . I'm wondering why Dan didn't have another pastor friend that he could confide in? Thoughts on that, Carla? What was McClaren's purpose in creating Neo and not a pastor friend? Perhaps we the readers wouldn't be able to relate as well if it was pastor to pastor dialogue. I think a pastor has to be careful how much he divulges to those in his congregation about his personal problems. I, too, would claim Pastor Roger has the pastor who influenced me most greatly in my lifetime, and his suicide will live with me forever. I understand,John, what you are saying about learning from his death, but I still will never understand why God couldn't have reached us some other way. Of course, those of you who know me, know that I struggle with those issues of why, why, why.
Back to Dan. Isn't his burnout just a natural part of our lives? Most of us learn to deal with stresses in life and move forward (Roger was an exception; his depression was more than he could handle on his own). Faith burnout demands from us the ability, I think, to continue on the journey in spite of doubts. I just finished reading Miroslav Volf's Free of Charge, about love and forgiveness. He makes the comment that doubt is part of belief and is not contrary to it. I guess that's where I have found myself in my own life - the doubts and questions are never going to go away. It's part of the holy tension of living life in the Lord for me.
Jean
It is a tough job to be a pastor because so much is expected of you. There are other jobs too were you are expected to be an example for others. I alwsys felt that pressure as the bank president in a small community. I imagine many teachers feel that same scrutiny from the public. Pastors aren't the only ones that face these pressures. The real issue is finding a way to cope, and that my friends is easier said than done. Certainly, we all have a tendency to put our best foot forward at Sunday worship. I'm not so sure about so many pretending to have it all together. I look around on Sunday morning and see so many that are hurting and facing their own kind of crisis. But, that's a time to build up their resolve, strengthen their faith, and help them see that they need to rely on Jesus not themselves. The time for opening up is in a private one-on-one relationship where trust has been established. Carla, I understand any Pastor's reluctance to confide in a member of their congregation. Every pastor needs an outlet, someone that will listen and help bear his/her burdens. They need a best friend, maybe another pastor that they teamed up with in seminary, someone they can lean on with trust and confidence, someone that will not be judgmental. Although we share and dump on a spouse, we need someone outside that relationship. There is nothing wrong with questioning our own motives or having doubts. That's why we need help from another person that can understand and accept us for who and what we are, saint and sinner, so that we can accept ourselves as we are. The person we need the most in this relationship is Christ. Seek Him through scripture and prayer. Praying with that person that you trust is important and theraputic.
ReplyDeleteBTW, Roger had that kind of friend (also a pastor) but he never opened up and confided in him. Roger was afraid to admit weakness with which he struggled, not even to his friend and confident. But, in the relationship Roger became the therapist for his friend.
Sometimes we need to hear ourselves think...to put our feelings into words. That's one way to recognize the folly in our logic.
Peace, John
After rereading my last post, I feel I must apologize for being so "preachy." I kind of sound like those people that pretend they have it all figured out. I don't and never will in this life, so take what I say as my own ramblings and if any of it helps you even in a little way I am humbled. I just try to relate my outlook which is limited by my life experience.
ReplyDeleteThank you for listening. John
Coming from the pastor's perspective--I find that female pastors are pretty open about their struggles. At our Georgetown Ministerial breakfast there are 5 women who attend regularly and support each other. When men are there, they tend to be a little put off by our openness. (except for Pastor Ken-he's cool) Therefore, the women have bonded closer together and call or email or get together one-on-one for help, but the men don't seeem as ready to trust. (or to appear weak?)
ReplyDeletePastors also need 'regular' friends who aren't pastors, people who help them feel 'normal'. I have a retreat group and a spiritual director who's a licensed professional counselor. They are the ones who keep me sane.
But, moving away from pastoral issues...question #2 touches on the subject of 'rules' for conversations about faith. Have you ever had an experience in which you felt your opinions were being attacked? How important is humility and open-mindedness when we're talking about spiritual things? What kind of pattern did Jesus set for this? How do we create a safe place for discussion?
Jean-I'm thinking about your comment that burnout is an ordinary part of life. You are so right. In Dan's case he has come to a crisis of faith. Mid-life seems to have brought me to a crisis of a lot of things. Maybe recognizing it as a phase or a portal into a bigger and better way of living makes the transition easier. Neo's character will begin to show us what it looks like to be on the other side of the crisis, while Dan will give us the insight into walking through the 'dark night of the soul.'
ReplyDeleteBeing a pastor who has traveled the road from Missouri Synod Lutheran to accomplished sinner during my navy days, to a Pentecostal, to a Disciple of Christ, to a United Methodist, has enabled me to see the world and Christianity from a variety of view points. The author presents, it seems to me, a disillusionment present with many people who reach 40 years of age and wonder if their life has meant anything. His context is the church which seems to have an uncanny ability to promote disillusionment on a grand scale because it is accompanied by the fear of not belonging. After all, if you don’t believe like us, you’re on the outside and perhaps even in danger of hell fire. Or at the very least you’ll be gossiped about which seems just as bad. The author also struggles with another fear, which is what other people will think of him or his preaching or whatever a critic might hold him hostage by. It is, of course, an exercise in futility to try and please everyone but western culture promotes a group think which bases a person’s worth on how much people like you. Jesus rose above the pressure of cultural norms to be his own person, not a people pleaser. It is one of my continuing personal projects to be more like Jesus and less the way others want me to be. It is infinitely easier said than done. But a worthy project nonetheless
ReplyDeleteStan-so well said. It's good to finally 'meet' you after hearing all about you from Mike & Tania. (well, maybe not ALL about you) Your last few remarks make me smile. My goal is also to rise above what people think to be a person who lives by a higher ideal. But we know where that took Jesus. Those of us who choose this way are always going to be out-of-step with culture; but I am finding that it's great to hang out with others who are similarly out-of-step and then to dialogue with those who are hanging on to the church's general way of teaching through guilt, shame, and control.
ReplyDeleteSince we're sharing our Christian pedigrees--Born into the United Brethren who merged with Methodist Episcopal, then Presbyterian, Nazarene, Assembly of God, and, now, United Methodist.